Still not post-racial.

[ursamajor]

I have much to say about the Delicious acquisition, but I'll save that for later when I can finish the background research I want to. I've also got a huge backlog of food pictures to post, especially from Cupcake Camp, and Chocolate Madness, and I have a new favorite cookie (the chocolate macaroons from Lakota Bakery in Arlington). And I did mean to be better at blogging, especially during Three Weeks for Dreamwidth. But first things first.

Chocolate Madness is a fundraiser where several dozen local restaurants and bakeries make exquisitely divine little chocolate creations for donors to nosh. I came prepared, of course - dressed similarly to other attendees in a nice skirt and top, wielding a mostly-empty stomach and my camera. (I may have a long-established habit of taking pictures of food.)

So I've got my camera out, and I'm fiddling with the aperture trying to focus on a nearby chocolate bourbon caramel ganache confection, when a middle-aged white person, with a name badge approaches me.

Middle-aged white person: "Excuse me, do you speak English?"
Me: "... I'm sorry, what did you say?"
MAWP: *gets look of "oh, shit, I just totally fucked up" on their face* *starts profusely apologizing*

Me, in the moment: Utter silence, because I've just glanced at that person's name badge and realized that as a local foodie, I most certainly recognize their name. I've been to their restaurant and enjoyed myself multiple times over the last decade. I know exactly how involved they are in social justice causes. (Very.) And they've just introduced themselves to me by asking me if I spoke the official language of our country* the same language everybody else surrounding them is speaking?

Me, five minutes later: "Dammit, I'm a California girl, I should've responded with, 'Like, omigod, totally!'"

Me, three hours later: "OMIGOD I HAD THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO USE 'CHING CHONG LING LONG TING TONG' AND I FAILED TO EXECUTE."

How do you even respond to that? Especially when you're anti-confrontational me? How am I still being blindsided by questions like these at a fundraiser for a liberal cause in a liberal city in 2011? How have I not developed the guts to call people on things like that when they happen? I recognize that they realized just how badly they screwed up and apologized immediately. But I'm still more than a little bewildered that it happened in the first place. I probably shouldn't be, given how Obama recently released his long-form birth certificate and that my first reaction was "Ugh, really, you gave into this absurdity?" I've since considered the words of people more versed in political strategy than myself, but even if it's meant to give Trump enough legitimacy to cause problems in the Republican party for the 2012 elections, it still feels wrong.

* I've been informed we don't actually have a legal 'official language' in the US! So I guess under the circumstances, English usage is more ... the lingua franca? De facto?

Comments

[flourish]

That seems so INCREDIBLY absurd. Especially since I live in the same place you do. What world does this person come from? How does that even WORK?

[flourish]

(I mean the assumptions she made and not your response to them. Um.)

[ursamajor]

I know! I mean, I know the Boston area is not precisely racial utopia, but with a quarter of a million undergraduates in the area, to say nothing of the hordes of grad students, the racism I've encountered tends to be more of the hipster-ironic variety, instead of this.

(Usually, when there are language assumptions around here about me, it's more along the lines of actual Latin@s greeting me in Spanish, or older Chinese people hoping I speak enough Cantonese or Mandarin to help them. I have a year of college Spanish under my belt, and I can answer the phone and say "thank you" in Cantonese, but that's it.)

[amaebi]

Actually, I think you probably gave the very best possible response.

[synecdochic]

whut

i mean, just.... whut

[theducks]

/o\

[pauamma]

Or at least. the safest. My startled out of me answer might be closer to "Yes. Why? Do you need tutoring?" but that may not be the best option as far as self-preservation goes.)

[amaebi]

What's the danger?

[pauamma]

Other party taking it wrong and getting physical.

[amaebi]

I think your context is from a world seldom witnessed at Chocolate Madness, but I await correction. :D

[llary.livejournal.com]

Here's something to ponder on.. if it's not acceptable for someone to ask an asian in America if they speak English, is it acceptable to ask a caucasian in [insert Chinese speaking country] if they speak Chinese? My languages used at home are Mandarin and Hoklo but you would never guess if you looked at me.

In Taiwan, China, Malaysia, Japan et al there is a lot of positive and negative racial discrimination that would cause riots if reversed in the US. For example we have Black Man brand toothpaste with a cheerful minstrel logo, the famous Nigger King store and commercials for English schools where teachers have huge prosthetic noses (therefore proving how good their English is, what with them being long nosed caucasians). But nobody ever gets steamed up about it and honestly, isn't that a more racially tolerant environment than having to curb your curiosity for fear of causing offense?

[ursamajor]

I am short! But I have combat training, at least according to Hikaru Sulu! ;) (Admittedly, I haven't fenced in about 15 years now.)

[ursamajor]

I still wish I'd had the presence of mind to go with the two more eloquent options I thought of after the fact! Alas.

[pauamma]

That could be. I have no experience with the place. "-)

Hoboi

[dreamatdrew]

Item one: Acceptable does not mean Right.
Item two: the local culture dictates Acceptable.
Item three: the fact that your examples are not met with riots does not make said culture more racially tolerant; racial tolerance is not about the blowup, it's about the expression itself.
Item four: to suggest, in a culture of immigrants, that one can assume what language one speaks based upon their apparent racial heritage is ludicrous at best. While Ursa makes an error stating English is the Official language of the USoA, it is the most commonly used, and there have quite possibly been people of Asian descent speaking English in California long before my ancestors came across on a boat. To make the default assumption that someone does not speak English based upon perceived race just screams of "Idiot Foreigner" thinking.
Point Five: As to asking the Anglo if they speak Chinese: Considering from what I know, educated* Chinese generally are at least get-the-message-across proficient in English, and the reverse cannot be said for most Anglos about Asian languages, it's a semi-valid question. As the default for a Chinese person is to have a clue in English, and the default is for an Anglo to not know Chinese, then the two stances are not contradictory.

I'm done.



*Educated = someone roughly the same age bracket as Ursa and myself, who actually attended school. This may be default assumption, but is not universal.

[glass_icarus]

UGH. *hugs you a lot*

Commiserations on the not knowing what to say bit; I usually respond with stankface + v loud and snippy "YES." Which is often neither the wisest or most satisfying option.

[chaobell]

I'm not sure "racially tolerant" is the phrase I would use to describe an environment in which people use racist caricatures and the N-word to sell stuff.

[boxofdelights]

It has only happened to me once, and I wish I had said, "Yes, but not with you."

I stared at him like he was insane, said "I speak English" in my Midwestern accent, and walked off.

[vi]

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. [offers hugs] Hear you on the confusion -- I don't think being at a loss for words is due to your lack of guts though! <3

I sometimes say something to the effect of, "I should hope so, I've only been speaking it all my life". I have resolved to say next time, "No, sorry, I don't speak English," (a la this clip) and walk away. Not sure how good or satisfying this route will be though!

Re: Hoboi

[llary.livejournal.com]

Point Five: As to asking the Anglo if they speak Chinese: Considering from what I know, educated* Chinese generally are at least get-the-message-across proficient in English, and the reverse cannot be said for most Anglos about Asian languages, it's a semi-valid question. As the default for a Chinese person is to have a clue in English, and the default is for an Anglo to not know Chinese, then the two stances are not contradictory.

- well there's the rub, you just made an assumption based on race. Most of the caucasian people I know in Taiwan do speak Chinese ranging from passable to fluent but very few people are aware of that because the assumption is that white face = no Chinese.

If someone had refused Ursie service because of her race then that would be racism. If someone had assumed that she was unable to communicate in English then that would be racial insensitivity. However in this case someone asked an innocent question that could be considered socially insensitive at best.

Honestly I think American culture is way too racially sensitive to the point where people are dishonest or afraid to speak openly about some things. On the other hand Chinese culture goes completely off the other end with some very overt racism, especially towards SE Asians and black people.

[llary.livejournal.com]

The 'N-word' does not mean anything to Taiwanese except that they hear it a lot in rap music. It's the Taiwanese equivalent of white people who get tattooed with random Chinese characters.

I'm afraid I can't agree that Black Man toothpaste or Big Nosed Foreigner English ads are racist given the definition of racism:

hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

It's important to distinguish between real, actual racism (such as being declined from a loan because you're black or asian) or just plain insensitivity. Without that distinction the real plights of immigrants get lost behind cases like the British pub singer who just got arrested for singing Kung Fu Fighting.

I am a first generation white immigrant to Taiwan, I'm naturalized Taiwanese which required me to give up my British citizenship. I would not have survived here without changing my perspectives on race and developing a strong sense of humor. I think we all need to lighten up a bit and admit we are not all just one homogenous mash.

[volantwish]

The thing I don't get is why they would ask the question of *anyone*. I mean...if they have a question to ask, why not just ask the question, instead of preceding it with "Do you speak English"? If the person they're addressing doesn't understand the question, then they get their answer...

My mom gets this on the flip side a lot, where she'll be talking to someone (in English) who will then comment "you speak English so well! How long have you been here?" Which is just kind of awkward.

[jadelennox]

given the definition of racism:

hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

It's important to distinguish between real, actual racism

Arguing from the dictionary isn't the right thing to do in this case. "Real, actual racism" does not mean malicious people who have hatred or intolerance. Sure, some people are sheet-wearing Klansmen, but most of us are just individuals operating with the unconscious prejudices based on the systems in which we live, thinking we are nice people so we couldn't possibly be acting racist, could we?

In Peggy McIntosh's vitally important "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack, she says I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group. It's important not to say "that person didn't want to beat all people of Asian descent, so his act was simple curiosity and not racism." In not just a country but a city of immigrants (22.5% of residents of ursamajor's city speak a language other than English at home, and many of those residents look "white", such as Italians and Brazilians), singling out somebody who does not look white to find out if they speak English is an act of saying "you don't belong here". It doesn't matter that it wasn't meant that way, it doesn't matter that it wasn't malice. It's part of the regular humiliation that white people in the United States-- whether or not they speak English -- don't encounter. The antiracist focus should be on effect rather than intention.

Keep in mind I am speaking about the United States. I cannot speak about Taiwan, because I don't know anything about its race politics. (I do know that my black American friend who lives in China encounters of vastly different kind of racism than his white American peers, but I also know that China is not Taiwan.)

Honestly I think American culture is way too racially sensitive to the point where people are dishonest or afraid to speak openly about some things.

I think we are speaking pretty openly about race here. ursamajor is talking about a crappy thing that happened to her where she is singled out as an unacceptable object of a stranger's curiosity because he thinks her face looks alien.

I think we all need to lighten up a bit and admit we are not all just one homogenous mash.

I don't think that not wanting to be singled out by strangers is saying that we are all just one homogenous mash, and saying people should "lighten up" is something only those with privilege can say. I'm the child of immigrants who are the children of immigrants, and nobody will ever ask me in America if I speak English. I have the privilege to say that it's just innocent curiosity for somebody to ask me if I speak English in my own hometown, because it will never happen to me.

[rhianona]

That's really bad...

I had something similar happen to me at work. I must have looked particularly Jewish on the day, and a woman asks me where I live (a fairly prominent Jewish neighborhood), where I went to school (two of the three schools I've attended are very Jewish) and then finally how religious I was and if that was why I had declined to eat something she had brought in to share (I wasn't hungry).

I blinked. And she hurriedly explained that she was just curious because she used to be very religious, even going so far as to wear a head scarf when she married and was just curious. I shrugged and said, I'm mostly agnostic/atheist but culturally Jewish.

It was a very bizarre question and I'm still not sure how I feel about being asked that.

Re: Obama and Trump. I am flabbergasted by Trump's audacity. Now that he has forced Obama to show his birth certificate, he is demanding to see his grades, because there is 'no way he could have gotten into the Ivies with his grade school grades.' Right. How is this not racism and bigotry on his part?

I find it wholly untenable that Trump is going out there and saying such things and is still doing well in the polls. I know I live in a very liberal area, but come on! This is just insulting!

[llary.livejournal.com]

This is a topic which I am really passionate about because my son is a second generation immigrant and I feel strongly that he should go out into the world without feeling that he has to be protected about what other people think of him or his race.

I think second generation immigrants have the toughest time because they are squeezed between two different worlds with different pressures from either side. I hope that my children will embrace the fact that they are different instead of asking other people not to notice.

You mentioned that in Ursa's city 22.5% of people speak a language other than English at home, so why is it such a negative and insensitive thing to ask about language? Isn't that just pretending not to notice that someone is Asian?

Maybe 15 years ago I would have instantly agreed that Ursa's foe was indeed racist scum but spending most of my adult life in a society that the average liberal would consider racist has numbed me down and I actually think I'm better off for it.

I get singled out every day because my face looks alien. I don't think it's a particularly good thing but I don't think it's particularly evil either. I would honestly prefer for someone to approach me and say to my face that they're curious about my nose or my language or what I eat than have them think that and pretend not to notice.

Ironically the only racism I have ever really encountered was from Chinese Americans who think it's 'not right' (their words) that a white person should naturalize as Taiwanese. Go figure.

[llary.livejournal.com]

BTW sorry Ursie, I love ya and I promise to stop hijacking your post now :)

[chaobell]

I never would have guessed that a person who doesn't understand how blackface caricatures are racist and thinks racism is something people just need to "lighten up" about was white. I am completely blown away by this stunning revelation.

I'm done. jadelennox said it way better than I can.

[jadelennox]

You mentioned that in Ursa's city 22.5% of people speak a language other than English at home, so why is it such a negative and insensitive thing to ask about language? Isn't that just pretending not to notice that someone is Asian?

I would say that in this city the majority of those 22.5% of people speak Spanish or Portuguese at home, with a substantial minority speaking Haitian Kreyól. In other words, there is no significant correlation between "Asian facial features" and "doesn't speak English," around here. But far more to the point, the majority of those 22.5% of people speak English in public. It's the local language, and people speak. Yes, this is a multiracial region of immigrants, and those immigrants are capable of speaking the majority language. Anybody who Ursie could recognize as being a long-time local resident would be aware of this.

Maybe 15 years ago I would have instantly agreed that Ursa's foe was indeed racist scum

Let me quote you back some excerpts from the comment to which you are responding:

"Real, actual racism" does not mean malicious people who have hatred or intolerance. Sure, some people are sheet-wearing Klansmen, but most of us are just individuals operating with the unconscious prejudices based on the systems in which we live, thinking we are nice people so we couldn't possibly be acting racist, could we?

In Peggy McIntosh's vitally important "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack, she says "I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." [...] It doesn't matter that it wasn't meant that way, it doesn't matter that it wasn't malice. [...] "The antiracist focus should be on effect rather than intention."

"Racist scum" is not the point. I'm sure he's a very nice guy. I'm sure that I have said things just as insensitive and stupid and yes, racist as that very nice guy, and I'm pretty sure that I'm a pretty nice person who cares a lot about social justice and anti-racism. The point is recognizing that nice, well-meaning, non-racist nice people can do racist things.

This is something that television and the movies would tell us is not true. On television, only evil murdering rapist misogynists ever do sexist things. In the movies, only klansmen, Jim Crow advocates, and other villains are ever racist. But we are talking about systemic injustice, and we all contribute to that. Even those of us who are nice guys.

I actually think I'm better off for it.

Like I said, I cannot speak to the experience of being white in Taiwan. But in America, saying "I think I'm better off for ignoring petty racism" is a privilege afforded to white people.

[llary.livejournal.com]

Wow. Why don't you read that back to yourself and realise what an ignorant and statement you just made, especially when you are supposed to be the enlightened one when it comes to racism.

I'm sure you would never dare to write something like 'I never would have guessed a person who is frugal turns out to be a Jew' but it's okay to write that piece of crap you just came out with?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

BTW, if you have a problem with Black Man Toothpaste I suggest you complain to the 2 billion Chinese who buy it, not me.

[llary.livejournal.com]

The point is recognizing that nice, well-meaning, non-racist nice people can do racist things.

That's something we can completely agree on and I wish people would be more honest with themselves about the racial profiling they do.

Like I said, I cannot speak to the experience of being white in Taiwan. But in America, saying "I think I'm better off for ignoring petty racism" is a privilege afforded to white people.

Careful now. Certainly with white people being the majority in America you are not going to believe that white people could possibly understand racism, but there is plenty of ignorance to spare for us in other parts of the world.

Re: Hoboi

[dreamatdrew]

you just made an assumption based on race.
Yes, I made an assumption based on a combination of race, personal experience, and (admittedly limited) knowledge of American vs Chinese educational practice: Children in China are encouraged to learn English, while here, Asian Languages are reserved for University and Adult education, generally. And, to clarify, the assumption wasn't "white face = no Chinese", but "European face = probably doesn't speak Chinese". The notion of probability may strike you as hairsplitting, but I'm a creature of probability, so it's relevant to me.

Honestly I think American culture is way too racially sensitive to the point where people are dishonest or afraid to speak openly about some things.
For that statement right there I will raise a pint at your wake. Still does not eliminate the fact that what was done was mind-numbingly rude. (Which, to clarify, is why I want to smack the person in question.)